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SR: Tthe first Death Dealer painting. That's become a complete icon.
Bisley: Yeah, you don't even look at it as a painting. You just look at it as, it's almost like the Niagara Falls, or Mt. Everest, almost like something that came naturally from the Earth and we just see it as part of our lives, you know?
SR: That first Death Dealer painting has been widespread, I've seen that same character painted on the side of a B-52 bomber.
Bisley: Yeah.
SR: Yeah, the name of the bomber was Ultimate Warrior.
Bisley: Really? Jeeze.
SR: I've got a photo of that in the newspaper.
Bisley: My God. Well, it's the definitive fantasy illustration isn't it, in that genre. That says everything about that kind of like, this kind of like sword and sorcery thing.
SR: Oh, yeah, I was going to say that pose is so perfect, so classic, it's hard to envision it, that character being posed any other way in that painting. Death Dealer standing on top of that cliff edge with an ax raised above his head. I mean that is absolutely outrageous. Outrageous. The power is incredible. It's nice to see Frazetta give full rein to the dark side of his work.That's what gave the Conan paintings their edge, and in the Death Dealer it's even more so.
Bisley: Well, I think it's that kind of realism, somehow. It's something so real about it. It's hard to do, it's hard to pinpoint, I mean looking at Conan's face in that, the Barbarian painting. I mean there's something so real about it. He's kind of like, I don't know. It's just not the cliche, is it?
SR: When I interviewed Frazetta about '85, I asked him about that, about Conan. And I said, where did you get that character? And he just kind of shrugged, and said, well, I grew up with guys like that, you know. They were kind of like neighborhood guys and second-rate boxers and you know tough guys that worked on the docks and that kind of thing.
Bisley: Yeah, I can see that. Gnarled look.
SR: He said if he ever did a Conan movie, he wouldn't get some actor, you know. He said he would go out and find some guy who looked like that because of the life he'd led.
Bisley: Well, this is right. I mean this is why I think it worked, because you could really relate to it. His physique was derived from his work and his life, I mean like a blacksmith, or, like I said, someone who works in a foundry, or a bouncer or a boxer, a general heavy. I mean I used to see guys all the time walking around, I mean that's why I think kind of Arnold didn't work as Conan for me because he was just obviously a body builder.
SR: Yeah, yeah. You know who I thought would have been a great Conan was, Charles Bronson from about '63.
Bisley: Yeah, if he'd been a bit taller.
SR: Yeah, yeah, but that chiseled build and that kind of like, tough, Slavic face.
Bisley: That's right, yeah. Yeah, and all, yeah, that's right. (laughter). It was great. Just the scar across his nose was good. I think, looking at that painting, it looks like Frank to me. That same mouth. The same mouth and nose and things, you know?
SR: Yeah, well I think he's the inspiration for a lot of his own characters. You can just kind of see that in the pose, and like the way he does a lot of dark-haired male characters. But, you know, he always adds that something extra.
Bisley: Well, he always adds that something extra, but he always leaves that something out. He just does enough.
SR: Yeah, like those paintings he'll do where he's just throw in like the character, a little bit of foreground, and midground, and like the background is all masonite or something.
Bisley: That's right. I mean this is, I mean look at the Death Dealer, everything is just suggested. The thing is, with Frank's stuff, you've got to look at it as a whole and you're drawn to it immediately, to look at the painting as a whole. Whereas, you find that other artists, their paintings work because it's so technically perfect that your eye wanders all over the place, and that's getting really arty-farty, isn't it?
SR: Yeah.
Bisley: Do you know what I mean, like, Boris's stuff is fantastic, but it's incredibly statuesque, isn't it? Everything he does. I mean, there's something about the quality of an artist that's very, very rare and very hard to define. It's just something that someone's got that makes things from it work, do you know what I mean?
SR: Yeah.
Bisley: Just the right pose, just right moment, just the right look, somehow. I mean, the people are technically brilliant, but it just doesn't do nothing for you.
SR: Well, I think one of the things that distinguishes Frazetta is, his taste. He knows what's the right moment to pick.
Bisley: That's right.
SR: You know, other guys have like the same amount of technical skill, maybe, though I kind of doubt it, but Frazetta's got that technical skill and great taste.
Bisley: Yeah. Well, this is it. I mean what makes a great painter is how well he can render something. I don't think it's how well you can render, you know, I think it's just, I don't know, it's just this something. I always used to call it "It". Somebody's got "It".
SR: Well, it's the quality of your ideas, being able to make the stuff look lifelike and believable. I think that's one reason why I like Frazetta so much. There are many fantasy painters out there, but when you look at one of Frank's paintings, that environment is real. It's much more accessible. It's more believable.
Bisley: Yeah. I think maybe 'cause like you were saying, 'cause he's lived it. He's been around guys like that, and he was pretty much a guy like that himself.
SR: Oh, yeah. He was a tough guy.
Bisley: He plays golf, he plays all this stuff and that. He kind of
looks a bit like that himself, so he can relate to it and make it work because
he's done it. He's not some faggot artist, you know, spending their life just
learning airbrush techniques and things like that. It's not going to work. It
won't come across, just in the way, just the way the abdominals will knot up,
or the arm, the way the elbow's bent, and the whole posture, kind of thing.
I mean if Frank wasn't an artist, I'd certainly fear him, like in the
medieval days or something, the Dark Ages. You know what I mean? I imagine he's
like, he's almost like, he's like a warrior of, in his art, kind of thing, you
know?
SR: Oh, yeah. Well, he was a very tough guy growing up, from what I've read about him, and talking to his friends. It's like nobody messed with Frank. Frank's quite a character, man. I hope you get to meet him in person sometime.
Bisley: Well, I was hoping to meet him. We had a car, we had it full of Budweisers. I had golf clubs, I had baseball bats, I had everything. I was hoping to go out there and like, play some golf, and play some baseball and things like that and go out and meet him, but unfortunately I had had a bad night out in New York. I was at some strip club and I was just so hungover we didn't make it, to get to do it on time. I think I fell down some stairs as well and bust a rib.
SR: Jesus, sounds like a rough night.
Bisley: Hey, it was fun at the time.
end of part three. In part four Simon talks some more about the Death Dealer!