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RINGGENBERG: I'm speaking with Frank Miller. It's December
fifteenth, 1993. Frank, I'm wondering about the Spawn project.
Why are you doing Spawn now, at this time?
MILLER: Todd asked me. You'd be amazed how often projects begin
that way, when someone just calls up and asks and you get along
with them well enough and you like their work well enough, and a
story comes out of it.
RINGGENBERG: How do you know Todd MacFarlane?
MILLER: Again, Todd asked me. He sought me out.
RINGGENBERG: From knowing your work?
MILLER: Yeah.
RINGGENBERG: There wasn't a personal connection before this?
MILLER: Oh no. No, we've barely met face to face, but he came up
and introduced himself at a convention in Portland a few years
back and we spoke briefly and later on, you know, he sent me
copies of the work he was doing and we got talking.
RINGGENBERG: Had you ever worked with Todd previous to this?
MILLER: Yeah, I wrote an issue of "Spawnù. I think it was number
eleven. I was one of the four writers he brought in.
RINGGENBERG: And do you know who the others were? I know Alan
Moore was one.
MILLER: There was Alan, there was Dave Sim, and Neil Gaiman.
RINGGENBERG: Oh, interesting. Boy, he's really going for the big
guns.
MILLER: Well, (laughter).
RINGGENBERG: Which issue of Spawn had you written?
MILLER: I believe it was Spawn number eleven.
RINGGENBERG: And did that story have any connection with thisšj&127Ü
project?
MILLER: No, not really. That was me sort of trying to do
essentially just an issue of "Spawnù. You know, I mean, I had read
over everything he'd done and tried to keep it in tune with what
he did.
RINGGENBERG: Did he give you any kind of plot outline about how
to fit it in with his continuity?
MILLER: Absolutely not. Todd said, I'll draw whatever you write.
RINGGENBERG: Really? Boy, that's trust.
MILLER: And I wrote a full script and he executed it, I thought,
very, very well.
RINGGENBERG: When you say full script do you mean a DCcstyle full
script?
MILLER: A full script is kind of like a screenplay only broken
into panels. On the Spawn/Batman project, at his request, we're
working more what is called the Marvel style.
RINGGENBERG: And did you feel comfortable switching back and
forth?
MILLER: Oh, I'll work any way. I've worked with a lot of people.
Everybody's got their preferences and you know it really all
depends on who you're working with, what they're more comfortable
with. For instance, with Dave Gibbons we work full script, which
he's very comfortable with and so am I. Because he brings so much
to the image of Martha Washington that I know that I can write
all of the dialogue in advance and that he'll make all the actors
look exactly right, and he'll make me believe in the situation. I
mean, he'll tell the story beautifully. Other people have a more
freewheeling approach. Like myself, for instance. I don't write
myself a full script. I tend to play around with the visuals a
lot and come up with the words to reinforce them.
RINGGENBERG: When you're writing for yourself is there a certain
amount of making it up as you go along?
MILLER: Not in terms of plot, but in terms of the moment by
moment stuff, absolutely. On "Sin Cityù, that's one of the reasons
why "Sin Cityù always ends up being longer than I expect it to be.
The first "Sin Cityù book was intended to be a fortyceight page
book and it ended up being two hundred pages long. Because as the
characters started doing what they wanted to do they wanted more
room and I very happily let them have it.
RINGGENBERG: Do you find that as you're working on a script that
the characters begin talking to you?
šj&127ÜŒMILLER: Oh, absolutely. They, uh, that's when it starts getting
fun. It's the clunky beginnings when you're just searching around
for it that are difficult, but once you're rolling and you've got
a feel for your characters, it turns into a real joy. And they
often surprise you?
RINGGENBERG: By taking the story in directions you didn't
anticipate?
MILLER: Oh yeah. The, in the new "Sin Cityù series I had mapped
everything out like I always do as far as who my lead character,
Dwight, was and what he was up against. He's thrown me a few
curve balls.
RINGGENBERG: I've already talked with Todd and he's told me a
little bit about what the "Spawn/Batmanù book is about and it was
interesting. He said the villains were going to be terrorists,
more realistic, downctocearth type villains, and I was wondering,
whose idea was that?
MILLER: The story was my idea. Todd had approached me having an
angle on how the two characters, Spawn and Batman would relate to
each other, which is they have a contract between the two, which
was an insightful one. He pointed out that Bruce Wayne was very
much a man of privilege and that Spawn was a total loser in terms
of how things work in the world. You know, Bruce Wayne is
handsome and rich and Spawn is impoverished and hideous. I took
that in mind and constructed a story with a, coming up with an
opponent that would sort of give them cause to have something to
do with one another but also using what Todd had suggested about
the contrast between the characters. I said the best way to treat
it would be to break the rules of these crossover books and make
the two actively dislike each other for the entire story.
RINGGENBERG: Oh, so there's no rapproachment anywhere in the
story?
MILLER: Not in terms of personality. You know, even though they,
by necessity, have to work together at one point. It really is
like a buddy movie gone wrong.
RINGGENBERG: Todd had said it takes place in New York City.
MILLER: Yes.
RINGGENBERG: And did that location present any story
possibilities that a fictional location wouldn't?
MILLER: I've done so many stories in New York that it might as
well be fictional. Mainly Batman as detective is...The trail of
the crime leads Batman to New York and to Spawn.
RINGGENBERG: Do you have Batman functioning more as a detective
as he did in some of the old stories? You know, picking the cluesšj&127&127Ü
up, analyzing them and going at his investigation in a more
scientific way?
MILLER: At the beginning, but this is, I only have fortycsome
pages in this and this is my first crack at doing Batman in his
prime. And I'm eager to show the, what my version is, of Batman
when he's oh, somewhere around thirtycone, say. When he has all
of his faculties together. He's not the talented bungler that was
in Year One, nor the arthritic character that was in Dark Knight.
(Laughter)
RINGGENBERG: Yeah, I was going to ask you, how did it feel to be
doing Batman again?
MILLER: I think it's going to be a lot of fun. I'm just getting
the art no, so I'm just beginning the scripting itself. But I've
got a lot of notions about things that I want to throw in. It's
kind of refreshing. It's been a while. It's like when I go back
to Daredevil, it's visiting an old friend. In the case of Batman
I've done so much less work with him that each time feels like a
real big step up to the plate.
RINGGENBERG: How is it doing Batman for Image rather than DC?
MILLER: Well, it's, I don't know quite what you mean.
RINGGENBERG: Well, the way Todd couched it, he jokingly made a
reference to approaching you by saying, Look, Frank! Here's a way
to do Batman and the DC editors won't be in our hair. He was
being funny.
MILLER: Well, DC of course, has to be consulted, but essentially
it's teamwork between me and Todd. And so far it's been a lot of
fun.
RINGGENBERG: Have they placed any restrictions on what you're
doing?
MILLER: I've had conversations with Denny O'Neill where he's
defined the parameters of what he believes about Batman. And
that's an ongoing thing.
RINGGENBERG: God knows, Denny's worked with Batman for ages.
MILLER: Yeah.
RINGGENBERG: And did some really fine work back in the sixties,
remember? How is working with Todd different than other artists
you've worked with?
MILLER: There's no two that are the same. With, how do I put
this? You'll have lots of you knows and how do I put this to cut
out of this interview aren't you?
šj&127ÜŒRINGGENBERG: Don't worry about it. I clean it up.
MILLER: Okay. What I find is exciting about a collaboration is
that I look, play to the other person. It's like we're having a
game of handball, and it always affects the kind of story I write
and how I write. And so the first throw of the ball is from me
when I throw them a plot that I believe plays to their strengths
or their proclivities or whatever. You know, again getting back
to the example of Dave Gibbons. When I write a Martha Washington
script I know I can describe a scenario and a setting that is
ridiculous and he will make everyone believe it, which is a
talent that is amazing. And I also know that he and I, we joke
back and forth and certain things really get him going. He likes
certain kinds of scenes. And so I play very much to his strengths
of making three dimensional characters, of making believable
settings. And to his sense of humor. In the case of Todd, we
haven't worked together as much as Dave and I have, but I write
to the kind of frenetic energy his pages have. You know, there's
a vitality to the stuff that's very exciting, and I don't...And
so the Spawn/Batman for instance that I'm writing doesn't have
much in the way of slow moments. You know you never see Spawn and
Batman sit on a rooftop and talk about their childhoods.
RINGGENBERG: Todd had said that this story is action, action,
action pretty much.
MILLER: Yeah, and as it's evolving, as we're bouncing things back
and forth, it's getting more so. We don't have much room, at
least it feels like not much room to me for returning to Batman.
RINGGENBERG: What do you perceive Todd's main strengths are?
MILLER: First off, I'd say what I just mentioned, the vitality of
his work. The other thing, and this may sound like a weak
compliment, but it's meant as a very strong one, is his terrific
committment to the doing of it. He's not a flash in the pan. I
think he's going to be around for a while. And he does work that
shows a love of work.
RINGGENBERG: You know it's funny you say that because he was
joking about he'll Spawn wrapped up in the cape. He said, `It's
great. People think it's atmosphere. For me it's laziness. I
don't want to draw the body.' (Laughter) You know, he's probably
being selfcdeprecating there because I think his stuff is
terrific.
MILLER: Yeah, he's a, well let's see. How do I put it. His stuff
is very alien to mine. And I like working with people who are
very different than me.
RINGGENBERG: His storytelling sense is very different from yours,
I mean the way he lays out a page and so forth.
MILLER: Yes. You see what I have is sort of the best of bothšj&127Ü
worlds in my career. Because when I'm doing "Sin Cityù, it's all
me. That's how I see it from start to finish and it's exactly the
kind of story that I most like. Then I get the luxury of going on
and working with Jeff ccccc, or Dave Gibbons and Todd MacFarlane,
or John Romita. It stretches me as a writer and it teaches me
things as an artist.
RINGGENBERG: Oh yeah, working with the different influences?
MILLER: The best way to be influenced by somebody is to
collaborate.
RINGGENBERG: Are you enjoying the collaboration so far?
MILLER: Oh yeah.
RINGGENBERG: That's good. Todd had said this is going to be out
sometime in the spring?
MILLER: Yeah, March I believe.
RINGGENBERG: Yeah, that's what I was thinking, March. Do you have
any other projects planned for Image?
MILLER: No, nothing for Image right now. Except for the
"Spawn/Batmanù, all of my projects that are in the works are going
to be under the Legend imprint.
RINGGENBERG: Just on a practical level, do you think working for
Image is going to help you sell more copies of your own "Sin Cityù
book? Exposing you to a different market share?
MILLER: It would be great if it did. I mean if it's...I'll just
have to wait and see. The main thing is is that I hope that...I
think that anything to bring people into the stores is a good
idea especially during the fallow times we're living in.
RINGGENBERG: Todd was saying that that was the real challenge to
him is just, now that he's on top, is to keep staying on top. To
keep throwing new things at people. That was one reason why he
was working with you and Alan Moore and various people, you know,
to bring new stuff to "Spawnù that wasn't a gimmick, like a
hologram cover for instance.
MILLER: Yeah. And these days, everybody's kind of fighting for
their lives out there.
RINGGENBERG: Yeah, well there's just so much stuff out there, and
there's really a lot of high quality stuff out there. I think it
must be hard to get that buck from the reader.
MILLER: It all depends on your aspirations. I mean I've been
absolutely thrilled at the audience that's shown up for "Sin Cityù.
Given that it isn't any of the things that one, it doesn't followšj&127&127Ü
any of the trends that have been dominant in the field for the
past couple of years. It's nice to know that that many people
will show up for a black and white comic book that doesn't have a
superhero universe attached to it.RINGGENBERG: Well, Frank, ballpark figure. How is "Sin Cityù
selling? MILLER: I don't have any numbers in front of me right now, but I
remember when I got them I was all thrilled.
RINGGENBERG: So you're happy with what you're doing?
MILLER: Yes, very happy.
RINGGENBERG: Good. Good. What are your plans for the future aside
from finishing up the "Spawn/Batmanù and working on your own book?
MILLER: Well, I'm going to continue doing "Sin Cityù books for the
forseeable future. I have a number of projects that aren't worth
mentioning right now because they aren't far enough along. But,
the two other books that I'm involved with are "Martha Washingtonù"
Goes To Warù, with Dave Gibbons. I just got the first issue from
Dave and it's a beauty. He's doing extraordinary work in this
series. The other book is with Jeff Darrow, "The Big Guy and
Rusty, the Boy Robotù. And Jeff is outdoing himself. I didn't
think there was room for any more stuff on a page than "Hardboiledù
showed, but there is.
RINGGENBERG: Great.
MILLER: Yeah. It's a fun time to be doing comics.
RINGGENBERG: Yeah, well it seems like all bets are off. If you
have a good idea and you can carry it out, you can do what you
want.
MILLER: Yeah. It's the kind of opportunity in history that
artists have rarely had, and I welcome it and I'm doing my best
to take my best advantage of it.
RINGGENBERG: You know Robert Williams said an interesting thing
when I interviewed him. He said that as far as the graphic arts,
he said comic books, the graphic vocabulary in comics has really
grown in the last fifty years, whereas what they call fine art is
pretty much moribund. He said comics is the area that's really
exciting because people are really breaking new ground.
MILLER: I'd agree with that. And partly I think it's because
we've managed to...Here's another how do I put this? I think that
one of the things that makes comics a very, very exciting field
is that we've had only limited success as a marketplace. You know
there's srt of a headlong rush to be more and more like Hollywood
that I think is, could turn out to be foolhardy. I've worked inšj&127&127Ü
Hollywood and there are, especially now, censorious restraints
and so much money at stake that people don't think straight.
Whereas in comics it's really amazing how little it costs to make
one, how few people it needs to involve. And what a receptive
audience that is out there. I think everybody got a little crazy
after Image showed up with superhero universes right and left,
with the speculators moving. Now the speculators are moving back
MILLER: Also, I think they've readjusted things and they're
actually moving ahead now. And plus Marvel I think is sliding
backwards, but DC's not trying to compete with Marvel anymore and
I think they're going to do better for it.
RINGGENBERG: Before you go, Frank, that brings up one question I
wanted to ask you. You know I know that Marvel has kind of taken
the attitude that Image is the enemy. You know they'rešj&127&127Ü
persecuting people that work for Image. Whereas DC, I thought,
displayed considerable amount of shrewdness in dealing with Todd,
doing the two books. And I was just wondering, what's your take
on that, as far as how DC has handled that.
MILLER: Geeze, I don't know. I'm just the writer, man. You know I
wasn't in on any of the dealing between DC and Todd. I think that
it would be silly to get into this blood enemy stuff. But I think
that both Image and Marvel have indulged in that. They're both
being kind of dumb that way, butccWhat was that apart of the
interview?
RINGGENBERG: Yeah, the tape is still going. But I can excise
that.
MILLER: Let's lose all that. Let's like kind of end it when we
ended it, okay?
RINGGENBERG: Sure. No problem.
MILLER: Because I just realized that I was babbling on and wasn't
even in interview mode anymore.